Quick question about test e and deca

30 posts / 0 new
Last post
Offline
Meatgeyser
Meatgeyser's picture
Offline
Meatgeyser
REG
Karma:
3
Last seen: 4 weeks
Joined: 09/11/2016
Quick question about test e and deca

5'10 180# 24 years old 10-12 % body fat. My first cycle was a few months ago I ran test E for 10 wks @ 250mg twice a week Monday/Thursday following PCT exceptional gains body weight went to 192, bench went up from lower 300 to 385 but after my cycle work got extremely busy working 70-90 hours a week so my rest and diet was out of control and lost most of my weight. So now I'm looking at my 2nd cycle and question​ is how does 400mg test E and deca 300mg/ week for 10 weeks, I'm looking to bulk stay lean but add body mass? 

Online
JARHEAD2
JARHEAD2's picture
Online
JARHEAD2
SILVER
Karma:
335
Last seen: 5 min
Joined: 11/14/2015
You should make an intro so

You should make an intro so everyone can welcome you & include your background info again. 

Drop the Deca & run test again!!!!

Offline
csancheezy
csancheezy's picture
Offline
csancheezy
SILVER
Karma:
303
Last seen: 2 months
Joined: 02/27/2015
why do a run?

I'm not trying to divert you or change your goal, but i'm just wondering why would you do one if you are not set up to have a sustainable lifestyle afterwards to keep those gains? Go through the money, and jabbing yourself, and the legal stuff, and messing with your hormones all to end up losing up bc of your work and rest and whatnot. Yeah I would agree with Jar, no deca. If you do make a decision to run, I would just do 500mg a week with an oral, maybe tbol or dbol. Anyways.

Offline
Meatgeyser
Meatgeyser's picture
Offline
Meatgeyser
REG
Karma:
3
Last seen: 4 weeks
Joined: 09/11/2016
Thanks for the advice, weight

Thanks for the advice, weight lifting is my life style work and workout​ is what I like to do, it's not all the time I work those hours it will vary but I have a goal and I will reach it. Once again I appreciate the advice test E 500mg/ 10WKs dbol 4wks is what I'll stick with 

Offline
csancheezy
csancheezy's picture
Offline
csancheezy
SILVER
Karma:
303
Last seen: 2 months
Joined: 02/27/2015
right on

What is a realistic goal you are looking to hit? What kind of lifting do you do? BB style or powerlift or what?

Offline
Meatgeyser
Meatgeyser's picture
Offline
Meatgeyser
REG
Karma:
3
Last seen: 4 weeks
Joined: 09/11/2016
I think a realistic goal is

I think a realistic goal is to hit 200# maybe 15% body fat semi visible abs. I do a body building style lifting I try to stay proportionant, maybe im shooting for the moon here I am small framed 18" arms and nice chest yes my legs do need some more work, that's part of it 

Offline
csancheezy
csancheezy's picture
Offline
csancheezy
SILVER
Karma:
303
Last seen: 2 months
Joined: 02/27/2015
So your

180 lbs and 5'10 right? 10-12%bf currently..

So you could put 20lbs on but I doubt your gonna keep that even at a super solid diet and training bc a little is gonna fall off maybe 5lbs or so. But we are about the same height and when I get to 200 and about 12-14% Its my best look so I think its a good goal to shoot for proportionately. Are you usually a bit of a hard gainer?? Whats your diet like?

Offline
Meatgeyser
Meatgeyser's picture
Offline
Meatgeyser
REG
Karma:
3
Last seen: 4 weeks
Joined: 09/11/2016
Correct 180# 5'10, my diet is

Correct 180# 5'10, my diet is pretty clean brown rice sweet potatos tuna turkey burgers and steak, chicken peanut butter with whole wheat bread I do eat Ramon noodles for extra quick carbs at 9am I'll eat tuna and ramon. With my meals calculated my protein intake is around 260 and also my carbs are around 260-270 I need a way to fit more carbs in. And yes I'm a hard gainer

Offline
csancheezy
csancheezy's picture
Offline
csancheezy
SILVER
Karma:
303
Last seen: 2 months
Joined: 02/27/2015
sounds like some

good food sources to grow. You can do some rice cakes and peanut butter as a snack for extra carbs, dextrose in your shake post workout, maybe include another meal with noodles in it like penne or something throughout the day can get you 60-80 carbs easy, throw oats in one of your shakes, a banana and apple will get you a quick extra 40-50 carbs, if your not putting on bf% easily and still need that scale moving up mix in a few dirtier meals through the week, burgers and fries, pizza, some ice cream at night. Just depends on how your body is responding really. How many cals you shooting for ??

Offline
Meatgeyser
Meatgeyser's picture
Offline
Meatgeyser
REG
Karma:
3
Last seen: 4 weeks
Joined: 09/11/2016
That helps tremendously, I'll

That helps tremendously, I'll do some tweeking on my diet. I'm shooting for 3000 Cal's now and by the end of the cycle maybe 4000+ 

 

Offline
blastthru23
blastthru23's picture
Offline
blastthru23
MOD
SILVER
Karma:
444
Last seen: 8 hours
Joined: 02/26/2016
Diet

First, I'm thinking to start with 3000 cals may be too low. For a cutter, that might be fine. I will, for arguments sake, estimate your TDEE at about 2800; it seems to be the average. Therefore, I would suggest starting your diet at no less than 3200 cals per day. Increase cals bi-weekly, but taking care of how your body is responding.

Lets break it down. 180x1.5 (grams per protein) = 300, or 1200 cals per day. Next, let's calculate the fats at 20% of total calories. So .2x 3200= 640 or 71g of fat (640/9=71.1). Now let's figure out the carbs. Add 1200 and 640 of which the total is 1840. Subtract 1840 from 3200 and we get 1360. Divide 1360 by 4, and we get 340. 

Therefore, P: 300, F: 71, C: 340. Not a bad start.  Protein gets divided into 6 equal parts for each meal. Carbs and fats get divided by 4. You should have carbs in meals 1, 2, 4, and 5. Fats in meals 2, 3, 4, and 6. Assuming meal 5 is post workout, which should have <5g of incidental fats and high GI carbs, and whey isolate. Dextrose may be added to both the morning shake (meal 1), and post workout (meal 5).

At 3200 cals, you won't need dirty foods. Actually, you can do it without dirty food the whole cycle.

Protein sources ought to be chicken breast, egg whites, peanuts, whey, and yogurt. Carbs ought to come from white rice, oats, dextrose, and white rice flour. Fats from olive oil and/or coconut oil. Veg I suggest eating are cabbage and asparagus. Brocolli is cool too. By choosing simple foods, preparation is a breeze, and fucking up is reduced greatly. Avoid carbs at the last meal, but if you must, make it a whole food like a helping of rice or oats with casein protein.

Once you get the hang of meal prep, and each food's macro profile, you will be able to easily adjust the macros to meet specific needs. It is my experience that it's ones diet that really gives gear its shine. 

That being said, each individual comes at using aas from a different angle.  Some, like myself, find that really getting the diet down is absolutely necessary. Others go by feel, they know what they need intuitively. Some have very specific goals, others have general goals. All good, and no persons way is better than the other. Find what works for you, and work it until or unless it no longer works, thereupon such discovery, make the required adjustments that you may continue across the open sea to find that rich land  heard about from those who went  before you. 

May Freyja give you a blessed journey, Thor the strength and vigilance to make the journey, and Odin the wisdom to stay the course. 

Offline
csancheezy
csancheezy's picture
Offline
csancheezy
SILVER
Karma:
303
Last seen: 2 months
Joined: 02/27/2015
Blast

I see you have much knowledge and interest in specifics on dieting and obviously experience with honing yours in and trying to help others. That being said it looks like you are a proponent of nutrient timing/meal timing ( "Carbs in meal 1,2,4, and 5, assuming workout in between 4-5") ("Fats in meals 2, 3, 4") (" Dextrose may be added to both the morning shake (meal 1), and post workout (meal 5).".....

Now I tend to mostly disagree with nutrient timing outside of pre workout meals for fuel. It seems a lot of the : carbs for breakfast/no carb for breakfast, anabolic window 30-90 minutes (or whichever figure diff people like to use), carbs before bed/no carbs before bed, immediately replacing glycogen in the muscles by slamming some quick release carbs after a workout, not mixing fats with the carbs after workout so as to not slow the digestion down.....etc. Are all mostly based on pseudoscience, and are atleast dubious in some cases. I am not claiming to be super well versed in this by any means, but for me a lot of what I here for peoples' explanations are just things they have been told by others not really scientific studies or papers from doctors/nutrionists ya know. Here are a few reads to maybe challenge some folks ideas about what they have heard or read before. I know nutrient timing really blew up in the early 2000s and probably before then as well, but it seems a lot of stuff has been published since challenging many claims.

Here is a link to a website that uses mostly peer reviewed studies like from pubmed, this guy had a pretty basic write up about the topic but the sources are whats valuable - https://authoritynutrition.com/does-nutrient-timing-matter/

It seems that many studies to support, immediate post workout nutrient timing, only measure short-term blood markers, which often fail to correlate with long-term benefits.- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24586775

I also just want to play a little devils advocate here. Making it a little spicy. And hopefully learn something.\

Honey Badger.

Offline
blastthru23
blastthru23's picture
Offline
blastthru23
MOD
SILVER
Karma:
444
Last seen: 8 hours
Joined: 02/26/2016
Quick response

i read the articles, but it seems the first one is targeted at a general population. The summary states that one might do the route of nutrient timing once they get their diet in good shape. That's the gist anyhow. I noticed the article didnt mention bodybuilding or aas use. That's a bit telling of the target audience. Not discounting the notion that timing isn't necessary, but it still is a good approach. 

I found an article that, while targeting the general population, does acknowledge nutrient timing as still relevant. You'll have to read through all the fluff or just scroll to the conclusion. (The title of the article is misleading). However, the author makes some good points along the way. 

http://www.precisionnutrition.com/nutrient-timing

Nor to be defensive about my position, but pseudoscience is not likely the correct term given hardly any scientific hypothesis makes it to the level of theory, thus even less so as law. Basically, we are still in the realm of the scientific method, using mostly anecdotal evidence in support of our hypotheses especially in the realm of diet, training, and aas. It's all very individual at the end of day. 

In sum, sure nutrient timing may only be hypothetical, but with a good level of body awareness on can ascertain whether it works for that individual, or just using intuition and a more general apprloach may work fine. Nevertheless, a disciplined approach is also good for ones mind especially since our culture believes the lazier one can be the more happiness they have. In my experience it is exactly the opposite. Planning with a mind toward a goal brings me more satisfaction than winging it, and hoping for the best. No effort goes unrewarded, for in effort one may find satisfaction in having achieved what one set out to do. 

The second article had a very small cross section of participants, and as we more or less know, some are cursed with the chicken leg syndrome always struggling with growth in the leg department. The researchers should take individual genetics into account, and run the experiment for more than 16 weeks, for even  on aas, true lean tissue growth takes a lot longer than one cycle to put on weight.

Well that I guess wasn't quick lol. But, I hope i made sense. Let's keep this rolling along :)

Offline
csancheezy
csancheezy's picture
Offline
csancheezy
SILVER
Karma:
303
Last seen: 2 months
Joined: 02/27/2015
Thanks for responding

Blast. I do have a few comments on your reply but am unable to hammer them down at the moment. But when I settle down this evening I will brother. Oh and will read the link as well, thanks.

Offline
blastthru23
blastthru23's picture
Offline
blastthru23
MOD
SILVER
Karma:
444
Last seen: 8 hours
Joined: 02/26/2016
Right on, we be busy mother

Right on, we be busy mother fuckers round here! Yeah, I spit that out while at work so it was a bit hurried. I prefer to put thought into things of this nature and not be too flippant. Maybe I take it too seriously maybe not enough, shit I don't know :)

Offline
csancheezy
csancheezy's picture
Offline
csancheezy
SILVER
Karma:
303
Last seen: 2 months
Joined: 02/27/2015
Ok hey

From what I understood of reading the main article that I had linked along with the studies it used for reference points was that the idea of nutrient timing may only be beneficial (may, as you said there seems to be no definitive and conclusive proven theories thus far) for those who are performance atheletes competing or training multiple times a day. Yes target pop did not include AAS users and I really wish for clarities sake we did have some more studies like that. But the target audience did however seem to be a legit scope of the majority. And we can agree that does not make it correlative to everyone all the time, as almost nothing ever is.

The article is super fluffy like you said lol, but yes I think the gist is that the data is inconclusive for both sides and that its more important how much and what type of food you eat over any given day. He lists research that supports several points even if the points contradict, which of course points even more toward there being no one answer but truly comes down to an individual. Thus this makes the point that we cannot readily apply so many of the principles that we have heard from our local gym rat without being more well rounded in our approach to nutrition. What I have found that in my early years of this lifestyle it was all extremes, when it came to all the stuff you hear like no carbs here, carbs at this time, no fat at this time, only this type of carb or immediately walking out the weight room you need to be guzzling down that shake etc. etc. etc...When the true reality was that these things like you have also stated are not principles but rather ideas that should be approached with a fair hand and tried one at a time while isolating a variable to see what it is that works for you or me.

I think we may be saying the same thing and have the same approach really. I always challenge theories or methods or whatever bc basically I have found a ton of them to not work IRL for me personally so when somebody says oh you have to this, I'm like oh really? You sure? Why? It doesn't work that way for me...

As far as your point about the laziness of our culture and how discipline is an honorable thing....oh man that's a whole different thread lol.

I think it would be very difficult to do a study on such a topic and take genetics into account because we have to have some general things that are being measure with the study (muscle growth, performance, weight loss,) to be able to draw any conclusions. But yeah that's definitely an interesting topic in itself, the way diff people respond diff to food and exercise seems to be a bit mysterious.

As far as using the word pseudoscience I think I meant it in the way that I hear people generally on boards and at gyms and such perpetuate the principles without talking about any science (blood markers, insulin sensitivity, glycolysis and the repletion of glycogen). So as to where they are not truly using the scientific method most the time (which would qualify it as pseudo) but are just doing what they think is right. And no bad on them, we all do that and then like you said begin to learn our bodies and adapt because we are being diligent. Yes we definitely

 

Offline
csancheezy
csancheezy's picture
Offline
csancheezy
SILVER
Karma:
303
Last seen: 2 months
Joined: 02/27/2015
not sure

What happened but two of the paragraphs are out of order and then the part of one last sentence of a paragraph didn't post...idk. I don't have time to re-write but I think it still makes sense like that, ignore the unfinished last sentence.

Offline
blastthru23
blastthru23's picture
Offline
blastthru23
MOD
SILVER
Karma:
444
Last seen: 8 hours
Joined: 02/26/2016
+1

Great response dude, once I get on a computer I'll answer :)

Online
JARHEAD2
JARHEAD2's picture
Online
JARHEAD2
SILVER
Karma:
335
Last seen: 5 min
Joined: 11/14/2015
Good choice sticking with the

Good choice sticking with the test!!  If you are looking for lean mass, I'd definitely go with tbol over dbol bro. My first choice would be Anavar though.

Offline
siegmund
siegmund's picture
Offline
siegmund
MOD
GOLD
BAN
Karma:
953
Last seen: 1 day
Joined: 01/15/2014
excellent choice and +2.  ,,

excellent choice and +2.  ,, your 1st 19nor. should be npp , its a short and alot more friendly than deca even tho there sisters.   ...    

Offline
supps
supps's picture
Offline
supps
SR
BRONZE
Last seen: 20 hours
Joined: 08/18/2013
I actually prefer NPP over

I actually prefer NPP over deca, I always gain more mass and i gain it faster... I am not sure why because the only difference is the ester.

Obviously I use Sust or Prop with the npp just too keep the short esters all timed together.

Offline
blastthru23
blastthru23's picture
Offline
blastthru23
MOD
SILVER
Karma:
444
Last seen: 8 hours
Joined: 02/26/2016
X2 with jar

go test e, and var. Nice and easy. 20 keepable pounds is a high expectation. Most will max out at 5lbs per month. This is the number a month or two after being off cycle. Remember that most of the "gains" are water and glycogen. Since you're a hard gainer shoot for a solid 3 lbs per month of lean quality gains, hope for 2. It's more what you do between cycles that solidify what you gained ;)

good luck, and post up an intro so folks know who you are :)

Offline
Meatgeyser
Meatgeyser's picture
Offline
Meatgeyser
REG
Karma:
3
Last seen: 4 weeks
Joined: 09/11/2016
I'm sure a 20lbs is a lot to

I'm sure a 20lbs is a lot to keep for my body type and to even gain in the short amount of time, it's just a little hard work I'll hit my goal eventually 

I'll post an intro here soon 

Offline
Titanings
Titanings's picture
Offline
Titanings
SILVER
Karma:
90
Last seen: 1 day
Joined: 03/09/2017
Deca is a slow esther that

Deca is a slow esther that takes about 8+ weeks to really kick in and even begin working, and most ppl suggest using it for 14-16 weeks to get the full effect. Therefore if you are going to run another 10 week cycle I would stay away from it. Also like others said it takes a very long time to leave your system if you have bad side effects from it. Therefore from what you have mentioned I would recommend something like this:

week 1-10 Test E at 250mg twice a week for a total of 500mg per week

week 1-4 Dianabol 10mg 3 times a day for a total of 30mg per day   

Or instead of Dianabol you can go-

week 1-6 Turunabol 10mg 4 times a day for a total of 40mg per day

Tbol has much less sides and you wont retain a bunch of water like you will with Dbol. Its considered the safer of the 2 especially for beginners. Therefore it can also easily be ran for 6 weeks with lil problems compared to Dbol. Also both Tbol and Dbol have extremely short half lifes so if you start having bad sides you can just stop taking it with no problems, compared to waiting for 2 weeks for the deca to leave your system.

Also make sure you have an AI (anti estrogen) for this, if you didn't seem to have any gyno problems than arimidex at .25mg or .5mg eod should do fine. If you are gyno prone and you use the Dbol you may need some aromasin at 6.25-12.5mg e3d. And of course your nolva/clomid PCT

Remember this is a marathon not a sprint and you have PLENTY of time for more cycles in the future. Key is to add no more than 1 compound per cycle so if there is ever any bad side effects you know which one to stop taking. So take it slow, and don't fuck up your body at a young age!

Offline
blastthru23
blastthru23's picture
Offline
blastthru23
MOD
SILVER
Karma:
444
Last seen: 8 hours
Joined: 02/26/2016
Spelled out all nice like

Spelled out all nice like

Offline
Meatgeyser
Meatgeyser's picture
Offline
Meatgeyser
REG
Karma:
3
Last seen: 4 weeks
Joined: 09/11/2016
Thanks for the nice break

Thanks for the nice break down, i tried arimidex a few times last cycle and every time I had flu like symptoms. I know everyone reacts differently but does that sound like a side effect from it. Atleast 3x 

Online
JARHEAD2
JARHEAD2's picture
Online
JARHEAD2
SILVER
Karma:
335
Last seen: 5 min
Joined: 11/14/2015
Was you taking pharma or ugl

Was you taking pharma or ugl bro?

Offline
Meatgeyser
Meatgeyser's picture
Offline
Meatgeyser
REG
Karma:
3
Last seen: 4 weeks
Joined: 09/11/2016
Ugl capsules, my dbol is from

Ugl capsules, my dbol is from them also no bad sides tho. And a question about capsules what's the best way to cut them to split the dosage if any? 

Online
JARHEAD2
JARHEAD2's picture
Online
JARHEAD2
SILVER
Karma:
335
Last seen: 5 min
Joined: 11/14/2015
Splitting capsules are hard &

Splitting capsules are hard & inaccurate. The trick is to keep levels steady in your blood. When splitting them, you usually get one inaccurate dose per day. It's best to go up or down a capsule than to try to split them. If you can't take adex, you should get aromasin. I'd definitely buy pharma for ai & pct & da's. There is only one ugl that I trust 100% to use for all that & that's because of too many problems people have had in past with other ugl ai's & this persons track record with ai's has been successful so far. Pm me if you need the source. You may trust yours & thats fine as well.... just have the ai on hand bro

Offline
supps
supps's picture
Offline
supps
SR
BRONZE
Last seen: 20 hours
Joined: 08/18/2013
I agree with Cancheezy,  Id

I agree with Cancheezy,  Id stick with test only, maybe add an oral for a few weeks, Good luck bro!