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New and need advice

Hello everyone. So glad I found this web site.

I have been doing a lot wrong and welcome any advice! Especially where I am obviously just so blatantly ignorant.

Background: 52 year old male. 190 lbs. 15-20% body fat. Work out every day, rotation of weight lifting one day and Yoga or bicycle the next.

Started taking 1ml of testosterone once a week about five months ago. Supplier went away two months ago and thus I was off for a few weeks....new supplier provided Sustanon and advised .8ml twice a week and I have been doing that for five weeks.

Love the feel and love the results BUT I just learned I should be taking Aramidix so I bought some and am taking one pill every other day.

Now today reading I have learned that I might need an off cycle and I might need to be taking HGC or something like that to keep my natural production working.

Pure ignorance is asking this but WHY an off cycle? Almost hate to do it honestly. And why the HGC and how much should I be taking.

I want to be safe and thus I need the advice and I think you in advance for everything you have to share!!! I truly appreciate it!

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First, welcome to mg, you're

First, welcome to mg, you're in the right place. Next, what is the actual dose of sustanon you're taking per week? Sus comes in different mg/ml, so this is important. Depending on the dosage, you may be running a "cycle" amount rather than a trt/cruise amount. 

HCG. There are different opinions on whether one needs to use this. Some use it to keep the testicles from shrinking; I use it myself for that purpose. 

Arimidex. It is good to take it to keep e2 from becoming elevated due to the exogenous testosterone being converted into E2. Adex dose and timing depends on the dose of test one is taking and how e2 sensitive you are. Each person is different and will often need more or less of an ai. Bloods will help one ascertain e2 levels. Usually, one will take half a tab of adex at certain intervals. Some take it every 3 days, some twice a week, others on an as needed basis. Depends, again, on the individual need and sensitivity.

Have you got your blood work done? If so, what are the results? If not, it's compulsor to do so. Best to do the blood work after coming off of the sus. But, while on is good too. Further, the panel you choose (one below 1500, or one that tests greater than 1500) will be determined by the amount of test you at taking weekly.

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Wow. thank you so much for

Wow. thank you so much for your thoughts and insight.

I hopes or more help let me answer your questions as best I can. 

The Sustanon is "Tesosterone Sustanon 350mg/ml"

No I have not had the blood work done.

How much 'HCG' should be taken if taken and one extra question if you don't mind.

Why take an off cycle?

Greatly looking forward to your reply and insights!

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So, you are basically on

So, you are basically on cycle at 560mg per week for five weeks. Plus five weeks prior with a two week break in between.  So, technically you've done a 12 week cycle, though that also depends on what you were  using prior to the "break."

I will say right now that I am no expert, but I will give you what I would do given your age. I would get some testosterone enanthate or cypionate, and begin dosing around 150mg per week. This will bring you into a TRT dose range. And, after 4 weeks get bloods done. You're looking to have your total test no greater than 1100.  Typically, time off equals time on. So, in your case you would pin 150mg (adjusted if necessary) for AT LEAST 12 weeks.

Another thing, research the symptoms elevated E2. Each individual will have different sides from elevated E2. See if you have any of these, but continue to dose with an aromatase inhibitor. Now, if you have elevated lipids (LDL), the aromatasr inhibitor you should use is aromasin as arimidex elevates cholesterol in many individuals.

Some sides from E2 include but are not limited to, acne, swollen hands or feet, water retention, lethargy, and moodiness. There are sides that are not so visible as well, but, I'm not the person to explain all of the ins and outs of the hormonal dynamics involved here.

Hcg dosage is 500 to 1000 iu  per week (2x 250 iu, or 500 iu. I personally have done both and have experienced little if any difference between the dosages).

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Thank you so much for the

Thank you so much for the quick replies and advice! 

So if I am following correctly the purpose of an off cycle is:

A) To ensure your body can still work on it's own and avoid becoming dependent

B) To avoid the E2 build up

C) To avoid potential liver damage?

As for HCG is that for taking during 'cycle; or during 'off cycle'?

This is all extremely fascinating. I hope I am not asking too much and thank you again for all of the shared knowledge.

PS: Took nothing prior to the Testoterone...not in my whole life. Never had any idea where or how. Not to mention I spent the last 25 years weighing between 250-285 and no exercise. Didn't start trying to get healthy again until after 50.

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Ok bobby lets get you taken care of my friend

First of all when I read this I kind of cringed a lil bit because I had a bad cycle myself due to lack of knowledge, poor advice, and being unfamiliar with steroids and how to use them safely. So therefore lets get you on the right track. I will be straight forward about whats going on.

So from what you said I take it you found a supplier for testosterone and used it until he left then leaving you without anything for a few weeks until you found a new one (and you probably were starting to feel terrible with almost flu like symptoms once going past 2 weeks without injections) and then you started taking testosterone again. So now what that means is that you basically you did a cycle (time period of steroid use like 12 weeks) of testosterone with no PCT (Post Cycle Therapy) and then started another cycle. Now the problem with this lies in the fact that your normal testosterone production was unable to completely restart before you stopped its production again (ANY steroids will shut down your normal testosterone production over 95%). Now once its shut down for a long period of time you take a chance of damaging your HPTA (hyperthalimus gland) which is what sends the signals to your testes to produce testosterone, and you can spend the rest of your entire life having to take test injections every single week if your HPTA is damaged. Now if you have low (especially zero) testosterone it can be a miserable and painful life and can even be deadly. Which is the reason TRT (Testosterone Replacement Therapy) patients take injections for the rest of their life, and when they do cycles its called Blast and Cruize, cuz they never stop taking injections. So now that I have explained all that you now realize the importance of cycling on off.

Now second thing is your AI (Aromatise Inhibitor) that your taking called Arimidex or Adex for short. Its purpose is to control estrogen. Testosterone converts to estrogen through Aromatization, therefore when you are injecting with test every week not only are you geting high test levels but your also getting high estrogen (also called estradiol or e2) levels as well and this can be miserable and painful and can be very unhealthy if it gets really high. Therefore you take an AI like arimidex to keep the estrogen down. Now do be warned since you are over 50 that arimidex can be hard on your cholesterol. It can lower your HDL (good cholesterol). So Arimidex usually comes in 1mg pills, and if your taking one of those every other day you are probably lower your estrogen too much which again can be unhealthy. Arimidex is normally taken at .5mg (half a pill) EOD (Every Other Day) or e3d (Every 3 days). And this is usually more than enough for most normal people. Now do realize some people are whats known as estrogen sensitive and it varies greatly per individual. So if you feel your nipples beginning to itch and burn then your probably in the beginning stages of gynocemastia and you will need to up the dosage up to 1mg per day to get it back under control. But from what you have said so far it doesn't sound like you are having signs of that at the moment.

Sustanon 350 means that for every 1mL it has 350 mg in it. Therefore .8mL equals 280mg times two shots a week =560mg a week. 500mg a week is the norm for beginners and some intermediate users alike depending on their cycle. So therefore do not go above this .8mL (.7 or just under 3/4 of a mL would be closer to the norm). If you take more than that a week all it will do is be more prone to give you side effects! and you will gain almost no more benefit from it.

Now last of all we have PCT (Post Cycle Therapy) This is your nolvadex and clomid. They are normally taken 2 weeks after your last injection and will go on a week/week/week/week basis for 1 month. What they do is basically send a LH and FSH signal to your testes telling them to produce testosterone again. Now the problem is that your testes get atrophy (testicle shrinkage) from producing no testosterone for months on end. And even though your taking nolvadex and clomid to help give extra signal to start, your testes are still slow to recover and take time to swell back and get back to full production again. Therefore a lot of ppl will use HCG to help "kick start" the testes into producing testosterone before they start their PCT. Me personally I use 1000iu of HCG per day for 10 days before my PCT starts and start my PCT the next day after my last HCG injection. Now others especially some of those on TRT will use HCG while on cycle to help with atrophy, but do be warned over usage may result in the bodies permanent dependence on HCG to produce testosterone. And considering you sound like you had no PCT between your last 2 cycles I would probably advise at least 10 days at 500 iu's a day before your next PCT to help get your testes fired up again.

So now I have explained most everything of importance, now its up to you how to safely proceed from here! Here is a layout of exactly what a good, safe, first cycle of test should like:

https://musclegurus.com/forum/anabolic-steroids/new-to-steroids-start-here/first-cycle-checklist-and-shopping-list

Please read through it. Now along with everything else I have told you now you should be on a good start to getting yourself straightened out, and please ask if you have any more questions!

 

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These guys have you covered.

These guys have you covered. I do want to add that Sust is not your best Test t use. It needs to be pinned 3 times a week minimum in my opinion. Sust typically has 3 to 4 different Esters. Definitely not the proper choice for this gentleman.  Can it be used for you? Yes, Just not recommended.

Look for Test Cyp.  Food for thought...

Oh, Welcome to MG...

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Thank you guys so much! Wish

Thank you guys so much! Wish I had known you before.

Okay...sounds like time to find some HCG novaldex and clomid. Huge help. Thanks again everyone and any additional thought is still extremely welcome! Doubt I can do much but please let me know if I can ever be of any service to you guys as a thank you!

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Hold on there big fella! If u

Hold on there big fella! If u are going to do HCG, do it BEFORE you start pct (looks like that's what you're planning on, good choice). HCG and I believe clomid do not interact well. I don't recall the why and wherefore, I just know that you don't run a put protocol and HCG. Look into the threads here on MG, the HCG thing is here somewhere. Probably search HCG in the search bar at the top of the forum page.

 

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Don't discount the idea of

Don't discount the idea of discontinuing ALL use and not starting anything (AAS, HCG, PCT) until you are better educated and have a well thought out plan in place. In fact it is your safest option. You will also need a contingency plan in case things go south. Regular blood work is a must for responsible AAS or TRT use. Blood work is also helpful once you complete PCT.

You kind of got your cart before the horse with no horse. I got to shake my head here Bobby and say you are playing a dangerous game with no idea what you are doing. Asking for swimming lessons AFTER you are already in the deep end of the pool is not the way to go. My bottom line advice is to avoid everything until you are ready. Tough love brother.

 

SEMPER FI

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Thanks All!

Thanks All!

Tons to try to digest! 

I will get on it and hopefully track down some HCG and then some Novaldex and Clomid.

Any thoughts on a product called Exemestane vs Clomid? 

Great help guys and while it's true. I am learning exactly as I learned to swim...jump in and drown or swim...it's darned nice to have help and encouragement so I don't drown!

Truly wish I had known about this before hand so I could have started correctly in the first place but awful grateful for the help in getting readjusted and on the right track!

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Thanks All!

Thanks All!

Tons to try to digest! 

I will get on it and hopefully track down some HCG and then some Novaldex and Clomid.

Any thoughts on a product called Exemestane vs Clomid? 

Great help guys and while it's true. I am learning exactly as I learned to swim...jump in and drown or swim...it's darned nice to have help and encouragement so I don't drown!

Truly wish I had known about this before hand so I could have started correctly in the first place but awful grateful for the help in getting readjusted and on the right track!

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Exemestane and clomid are two

Exemestane and clomid are two different animals. Look them up, and get acquainted.  I'm going to have to agree with SemperFi on this topic. Since it seems you've been on test for a short period, it may very well be in your best interest to stop. Wait about 4 weeks and get bloods before buying anything else. In that time, research research research. Start on the right foot, rather than stumbling into the dark hoping for the best.

Know what nolvadex, clomid, arimidex, and aromasin are, what the do, and when to use them, because these things are different than say aspirin where you pop a few for a headache. This is very different. 

Know WHY you want to run aas, and get an idea of the result you seek.  

Again, don't worry so much about buying more stuff, I know it's pretty cool, and easy. But get your bloods done first, and Know and understand what the numbers mean. Then proceed from there.

We are here to help, and only want the best for you. I'll admit here, that my first post was in error, as it's my tendency to be "the cool parent" and let the kids drink beer so long as they do it at home. Not a good idea. So, sorry about that, didn't mean to be irresponsible with the info I first gave out. I'm still learning too :)

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I agree and disagree!

I completely agree 100% that you need to get blood work done to make sure everything is ok. This should be your top priority. I also agree that you are not on a cycle but actually in crisis management at this point with no idea where your estrogen levels are, Lipid levels are(cholesterol), where your blood pressure is at, whether you have water weight gain. I mean there is a million things that could be wrong right now and you have no clue whats actually going on in your body!

Now what I DO KNOW is that you have been taking test for months and that your testosterone production is at a stand still right now. Therefore I would NOT advise you to just stop taking everything WITHOUT A PCT. One thing I do know 100% is that your testes are shut down and at your age if you stop taking everything you will be in an absolute painful miserable existence for MONTHS while waiting and hoping that your test production starts up again. So therefore what I do know is that you need a PCT RIGHT NOW.

So I agree with these guys 100% that you need to get off everything ASAP! BUT you need to do it WISELY. And what I mean by that is this:

1-YOU NEED BLOODWORK DONE ASAP

2-You need to order 5000 iu's of HCG, 2100mg of CLOMID, and 840 mg of NOLVADEX right now, not next week or when you get around to it. If you have a dealer get these from him right now.

3-As soon as you have the HCG, CLOMID, and NOLVADEX IN HAND STOP TAKING YOUR INJECTIONS.

4-As soon as it has been 14 days after your LAST injection, then on the 15th day (because its sustanon) take 500 iu's a day for 10 days of the HCG, THE DAY AFTER YOUR LAST HCG injection start taking the CLOMID and NOLVADEX. Take them for 4 weeks at the dosages in the beginner link (scroll up)

5-TAKE TIME OFF TO RECOVER AND RESEARCH YOUR ASS OFF BEFORE YOU TAKE ANYTHING ELSE.

As a side note you will need at least 10 of the 1mL insulin syringes (you can use normal injection syringe to mix it), at least 5ml of bac water, and alcohol swabs for the HCG. Then go watch a video on how to reconstitute HCG. at 5mL of bac water to 5000 iu's of HCG that means 1mL will equal 1000 iu's of HCG. So take 1/2 or .5 mL a day for 10 days THEN START PCT.

I apologize to everyone if this seems short or rude, but I have come off a cycle with no PCT and I will just say when you are over 40 its fucking horrible. I would NEVER recommend that to anyone!!!

Then after you have done this come back and I would gladly discuss putting together a new cycle for you once all this plus your bloodwork is done and you know where everything stands my friend. SAFETY FIRST!

 

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YOU'RE STILL ALIVE

Titanings wrote:

I apologize to everyone if this seems short or rude, but I have come off a cycle with no PCT and I will just say when you are over 40 its fucking horrible.

But you lived to tell about it. ;) I am sorry you had to go through that and I can imagine you wouldn't want to wish that experience on anyone.

This is not specifically directed towards you Titanings. I simply felt this was an appropriate place to get it off my chest.

There is not such thing as safe steroid use. There is responsible use and irresponsible use. Time for all of us drug pushers and drug users to admit it and stop playing with the health of people we do not know.

If we were TRULY concerned about the OP (learned what that means a few days ago) based on the very limited information that was and has been provide we would never recommend that he continue steroid use and placing himself in harms way.  What if the OP has a coke or meth addiction he did not share? What if he has a major health issue that he did not disclose? What if.....etc.

Bobby - I am not accusing you of being deceptive or being at fault. My greatest concern is that you remain healthy and remain safe. Sorry if this appears personal but I was using your post to prove a point.

I am just as guilty as the next person but this site is becoming a place where drug use is condoned and trumps the individuals health. Maybe it has always been that way and I am finally recognizing it or admitting it. We are a bunch of drug users and in some cases pushers with very few members that are interested beyond that.

The excuse that they are going to use anyway so I want to make sure they use safely is BS. That is defeatist, that is irresponsible, and that is wrong. 

 

SEMPER FI

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+2 for the statement, "There

+2 for the statement, "There is no such thing as safe steroid use"  I Remember a couple years ago DT was having it out with someone about safe use. He was like "C'mon, Really"  The key is to monitor your use.  Checking BP, Donating blood, Bloodwork, Supplementing, diet. tons of water are a few things to make Steroid use Safer.

I believe this site has always been this way and you are just recognizing it and admitting it. Its easier for us older guys to SEE things. We have life experience and can most likely relate to our mortality easier than a younger guy. I am on cycle now and I love it. No doubt but after a lot of my experiences I've toned it down. My current cycle is approx. 600 mgs of prop and 50 mgs of proviron. I did use Dbol for only 2 weeks.  Point being, as I get closer to 50 YO I've toned everything down but I am certainly not a safe person in anything I do... 

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Semper my friend

I write that about HCG and the PCT because when I came off a cycle with no PCT whatsoever I had no energy, no drive,my body hurt and ached and I had flu like symptoms at times, I fought depression, and a whole multitude of horrible things that I wouldn't wish on anyone, and definitely don't want to see happen to this poor gentlemen. That is the reason why we always yell you absolutely must have a PCT when coming off cycle....no exceptions. Yes I did live to tell about it but a couple times I almost didn't. My bipolar went crazy, I was horribly cranky and irratible, and luckily I didn't lose my wife for whom I have been with for over 20 years or my family, but a couple times even that was sketchy. So this is the reason why I say right now he is in crisis management. This is the reason why I absolutely think he should be off the gear ASAP and starting his PCT. This is the reason why I stated what I did above and advised him like I did and I will not change my opinion on it.

So therefore Semper my friend step back into the light with us. What I mean by that is this my brotha:

Yes I agree 100% with you that there is no such thing as completely safe steroid use, there is only responsible and irresponsible use. THEREFORE that is why this website is here, to help guide people as safely as possible down their path. Most people who come here have already made up their minds on whether they are going to use gear and that is why they are here, and at times what we say isn't what they want to hear and they leave to their own demise. A lot even have the same story as this gentlemen. They have already started a cycle with no clue to the side effects, what they are taking and why, what safe dosages are, or a handful of other things that make their use irresponsible or even down right dangerous.  .........BUT

That is why people like you, dolf, blast, cheezy, myself and so many others are here. So we can try and be teachers and mentors and try to push them down the safest, most responsible path we can. At least I know that's why I am here. I don't think for a second we are drug pushers, I don't think that's correct at all for a lot of the people I have met here. Hell if anything our first answers will be leave the gear alone, go diet and exercise and work your ass off and see if you can accomplish your goal without it.

In the end I cant make up peoples minds or tell them what to do. All I can do is advise them to be as safe and responsible as possible. And then everything else is up to them. You my friend are one of the best I have seen at it. Be a friend, be a mentor, be a teacher, bring that experience and wisdom and immense knowledge you have to the table and enrich and change someones life for the better! Besides if that's not why we are here then whats the point?

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Some times the greatest enemy

Some times the greatest enemy to doing the right thing is doing a good thing. 

“The quality of decision is like the well-timed swoop of a falcon which enables it to strike and destroy its victim.” - Sun Tzu

Titanings wrote:

I don't think for a second we are drug pushers 

Position awareness helps us see the truth in most situations and it is perfectly reasonable for someone to deny that they are a drug pusher. Our viewpoint is limited by our position on the matter. I have seen the view from both vantage points and my view is perfectly clear- this site (and every other review site) is designed purposely to push steroid drug use.

 

SEMPER FI

 

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"We" may not be drug pushers,

"We" may not be drug pushers, however, we are instrumental in the sale of aas. Each time we review a source, recommend a compound, or otherwise advise a member on use, we benefit a source who at the of the day makes a sale. We are constructively pushing whether we like it or not. Is it a "bad" thing? That depends...

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I won't play

mental gymnastics about the reality/nature of what we are doing here but I will say the majority of people finding this site already have used gear, are looking for how to find their gear, or have a friend they are doing gear with who has then says check out MG. So are we (the members) fishing for people to come here to "push drugs" I don't think so. I'm sure not. So then the question is do we (the members)  encourage an environment where use of an illegal drug or drugs (90% of the time here its not just TRT info or advice) is promoted? I would say that is a definite Yes, but also that happens organically for the most part in a place where people already come to the car lot looking to buy a car..is that defeatist? Well maybe, but also it is just generally how things work. I came to this place originally bc I was already looking to try AAS and learn much more about them, I put forth the intention, the energy, the time/money etc etc. BUT..Could we do more to deter people from being involved in a lifestyle that has them partaking in a black market activity, yes, forsure. These questions also come back to general personal morality, SF you may have those convictions that another man may not quite have such strong things burning in his own conscience. Now is morality relative (well that's a much bigger topic then is needed IMO) lol...

Like you stated "our viewpoint is limited by our position on the matter" and that would obviously go for yours as well. These frameworks shape the arguments or stances we take and make. Now is the 'site' itself designed purposely to promote steroid use, yeah yeah it is, I mean it is literally a "steroid review site", so the question then is why are you (generally speaking) here?       My answer: To find honest reviews on sources bc I choose to partake, but I stayed for the people and MANY MANY MANY other topics that we discuss and learn about weekly.

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My fa-cheezy with the A+++ :)

My fa-cheezy with the A+++ :)

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Im beginning to think you

Im beginning to think you were an officer in the Corps. Id follow you into battle Semp

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Semper my friend

error 404 strikes again!

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WOW Thanks for sharing guys.

WOW Thanks for sharing guys. This is informative on multiple levels and quite fascinating. I can't believe the knowledge gained in a couple of days...wish University had been this quick, I would have had my masters in a year :-)

Let me also as a newby comment on the 'pusher' thing. NOW WAY. I see only the exact opposite evidence! Look at me...a guy who wants to be better, stronger, healthier - feel younger :-)    a  guy who has found a product that does all that but because the government frowns on the product there is very very little information about it. What little is out there is hard to come by and then I get lucky (sadly a little late but always better late than never) and here are people with first hand knowledge who are willing to share. Who are willing to advise - even if it hurts. This is NOT the way of a pusher. It is the way of an advisor, a counselor. So guys thank you and please don't beat yourselves up at all. ALL you are doing is serving and that is always good and in my lifes experience always paid back somehow! (Sure hope I encourage and offended no one). But that is just my opinion, what do I know. I am new!

Background out of respect: Age etc...has been given.  Excellent health....only surgeries were appendectomy in 1978 and hernia in 2001. Other than drying and ageing eyes that now require reading glasses no issues.  I enjoy beer and wine when I can but that's not too often. Never used drugs, never even tried marijuana. Rarely use anything harder than aspirin or ibuprofen. Take a multivitamin and vitamin E and C everyday. That's it. So no fears on drug use etc....  Reason for starting; to oversimplify. I spent the ages of 27-49 between 225-285lbs. Kids, life, building a company, stress, etc...very little exercise. Life slowed down and I felt like heck so I decided to lose weight and get in shape. Dropped 70lbs and got to 210 in a year. Started lifting again and having fun, needed Viagra. Decided to look into Testosteron replacement as my "T"  was low but the cost and quality seemed silly.  Had a friend who said 'use this I love it' and so I started injecting per my original listing.     I could go on but I feel kind of self indulgent at this point so hopefully this helps and wasn't too much info.

Now, can I ask a really dumb question?  And I KNOW it's stupid but keep in mind I am extremely ignorant.   Why ever go off cycle? Why not just supplement T for life?  My body is barely producing already. I am never having kids again anyway. Why not just pick a low maintenance dose and never go off cycle? Other than it could mean permanent damage to the testicles and the inability to ever produce T on my own again...so what?  Again, this is slightly overstated and I know it seems crazy but my experience is begin with knowledge of the extremes and you often develop the best ability to see the knowledge of the middle. So please forgive a putz his question but I would truly like to know the why.

Or are steroids only good for short intentional gains? Example: I want to drop 10lbs that are proving hard to lose and I want to maintain muscle mass...OR  I want to add 15lbs of muscle and can't get over the hump with just diet and exercise?  Thus one chooses an appropriate cycle and then pcr and it's all good. 
FYI: I have no problem with that, it's just not what I believed coming in (again, ingnorance). So I am curious.

PS: My goal, honestly...1) Keep feeling like this, I truly feel 30 years younger and it's awesome. 2) Keep recovering so much quicker from hard workouts...3) Have some help with losing weight and keeping it off.   After that, the bigger and stronger stuff is fun but not as important to me personally.

WHEW,,,i hope that wasn't too much. thanks for listening and for everything else!

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Bobby, Many people do use

Bobby, Many people do use testosterone for life. (TRT)  Testosterone replacement therapy is for those whos Test levels are in the basement. They have no sex drive, could be depressed, some have felt like just ending their life. Trt is for life though..  That is something to talk about with an endocrinologist IMO.

I have been using AAS for 3 years now and have been very lucky tp PCT and recover every time. Every cycle  of Synthetic testosterone that you do is definitely affecting your ability to recover and produce natural Test. If you are in your 50's and feel lethargic, depressed, no sex drive etc. Then talk to an endo.  WE have a lot of guys here that are TRT and live a happy normal life. I wasn't sure of my stance on that until recently. I just took off 6 months from AAS use and had no bad side effects. I only still PCT with Nolvadex and clomid.  I had recent bloodwork done and it showed that my ALT and AST enzymes were back to normal... I have been lucky and try to constantly inform myself. We have guys here much smarter than me that teach me something new constantly... Stick around..

Why not use Test? That's for you and only you to decide. Do you have High Blood pressure? are you prone to anxiety? just some questions for you too look into...

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Thanks Strong.

Thanks Strong.

No, I don't have anxiety or depression etc...

Curiosity, and only because I think it will help me to understand and to learn. Why use AAS at all? If the risk is so high and the off time so necessary with always the fear of permanent life threatening damage...what is the value? what is the gain?   I am truly asking to learn and in way mocking or discrediting!  Are the muscle gains and weight loss sustainable and the only way to get there to take these risk? Are the risk being overstated out of protection - better safe than sorry so to speak?

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I can only speak for me. I

I can only speak for me. I use AAS for the dominant feeling it provides me. I was always a strong kid who trained with weights since I was 13 years old. I was an excellent athlete and took tons of pride in it. albeit, I was a troubled young kid for many reasons and put myself in bad places. I ruined my athletic future with poor judgement that landed me in prison. I got out with a different outlook on life knowing I didn't want a life of crime and nonsense. I went right to work all day and night. I became fairly successful and only trained when I had time. I did a job that was so life consuming. When I really started working out again I just never had that same mentality or energy. Aguy I worked with was on AAS at the time and he looked so good and had all things working. He introduced me to steroids. That idiot gave me a bottle of test 400 and a bottle of tren with no guidance.. I decided to research instead of just pinning anything someone gave me. I cruised around the internet and found MG to be my best fit.  2 devoted members welcomed me in and were kind fellas. I did research myself and only confirmed with them if my research was what they were finding as an experienced member/user.  I had already been using 500 mgs of test that I got from someone else with a little info. to help me. I failed on my first cycle. I was way too fat and not in any shape. I shut it down, learned a lot and most of all found my discipline again. In short, AAS use has enabled me to have the focus, energy and restore my work ethic that I lost. It also boosted my sex life. I am currently 250 lbs and in good shape working back to great shape after a plethora of injuries and life changes.  As I type away here Bobby, I don't think I really have an answer for you. Everything in my life is just better with AAS use. I don't feel my life has ever been threatened or compromised from use. I am healthy and who doesn't want to feel like their 20 years old is the only answer I can come up with...

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Sounds similar to my goals

Sounds similar to my goals and desires.

So let me ask you this then...and I am back to just being an eager novice. 

What is your year like?  To explain my question: It seems the average is a three month on and then three month off cycle/pct.  I know what to expect during the three months on but what is it like during your three months off (assuming correct application of pct)? 
Do you experience a large loss of energy and muscle mass and gain weight? 

Or does it stay pretty balanced? Like on a scale of 1-10 if on cycle is a 9 then off is a 7 or better and life before in contrast would have been a 5?  Or does it drop back to the normal 5 or below?

I am truly curious as to what to expect. It would help me a ton with planning future goals.

PS: PLEASE anyone answer this. I very much hope Strong replies but I truly welcome a full spectrum of insight on this subject, the more the merrier!

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There is no answer that will satisfy you

the question you asked is only found through doing.Strong is not you I am not you nor is anyone else here so what some may scale a 3 Maybe a  5 to you. So the question your asking in essence is pointless. it's like being by a pool and asking everyone around you what the water feels like. You never know until you get in there and feel it.

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As I posted my reply DT

As I posted my reply DT cleared it up as well. You have to see. The only thing I can say is you better be in shape first. You do not use to get in shape..

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I've come to a conclusion on

I've come to a conclusion on one thing. AAS use is very individualistic. What I experience does not mean you will experience the same thing on or off cycle.  For Me coming off cycle is not bad at all. I have responded very well to PCT and have kept a very positive attitude. My workout intensity doesn't change. My sex drive drops a lot for a month after my last pin. My dick can be a little shriveled but sex drive has come back and I feel great. I tend to lean out and feel great... I think you said you were 52. You need to decide before doing anything if you plan to see an endo. or just self medicate. You need to get your diet in order first and your workouts need to be serious. You need to commit to a lifestyle change.  I am currently on a 12 week cycle and will go off probably till September. I may do a winter bulk, I don't know. My goals in life have changed.  I guess most would say that you go right back to your Baseline # before usage. Not me, I feel and look so much better than I did prior to use. Its a constant chase in the pursuit to look and feel great with overall health in top priority... My answers will not be everyones answer.

Its this simple for me..... My wife takes an Excedrin Migraine pill when she has a bad headache and that works for her... It does nothing for me...  All I can say is if you think you are ready to try AAS usage then commit to a plan right now to get yourself in shape and diet properly. IMO, You must see results in your natty training and prove that you are committed.  There really is no 1 single answer to these questions...

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I am not asking anyone to

I am not asking anyone to play mental gymnastics as HB puts it and I am certainly not passing judgment. I apologize if you feel I am trying to press my moral code off on to anyone else. I just know I will never again make a recommendation concerning steroid use to anyone that I have not looked in the eye.

If you have spent any amount of time on MG you have seen the members that have fallen out of the boat and at least one drowned. They were each a part of this community and I hold myself responsible and accountable for the advice that I provided to each and everyone of them. 

Make no doubt about it. Every recommendation and every piece of advice that is provided comes with consequences. Most of the time the consequences will be good but just one missed step and I could be causing great harm to another human being. I have done enough harm to others in my time and I am not going down that path another step. 

I have come the the conclusion that responsible steroid use is too serious of a matter to be handled on the internet.

Bobby- My sincere apology for highjacking your thread with a personal matter. Not cool!  

SEMPER FI

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Bobby I will never personally

Bobby I will never personally recommend you going on TRT for the rest of your life. That is not my place, and I would never condone it unless it was actually needed. If you have actually seen a doctor or specialist about it and they have done blood work and they advised you go on TRT, then the decision to do doctor prescribed or self prescribed TRT will fall completely on your shoulders. Now what I do know is that the amount you are taking right now (560mg a week) is NOT a TRT dosage, that is a cycle dosage. From what I have seen while reading (I am not on TRT myself) those dosages (TRT) fall more around the 100-200mg a week range if I remember correctly. Others who are actually on TRT can help you to make a more informed, and responsible decision on this matter if you did decide to self prescribe, but in the end the decision is ultimately yours so please do it wisely!

As far as off cycle compared to on cycle goes, you have already seen the differences. For me personally I started taking AAS because I was over 40, hitting the gym 5 times a week and hit a plateau. The muscle building, recovery, intensity of training, and drive just wasn't what it used to be when I lifted weights years ago, plus I have arthritis of the spine, herniated discs, lower lumbar problems, shoulder and knee joint problems and wanted to see if AAS would help me to live a better life with less pain. Because the last thing I want is to treat the symptoms with muscle relaxers and pain pills every day, or be sitting there with a bong or a bottle in hand every night. So I decided and tried out some gear.  First and foremost I figured out the stereo type of "just take steroids and you magically become a bodybuilder overnight" is pure bullshit. AAS is only part of the equation. Without proper diet and training your pretty much pissing away money. Second thing I figured out was that I had a better sense of well being, was less cranky and it took more to anger me, had more focus and drive, and it actually changed my thought process for the better. It also helped improve my life with less lower back pain by helping me to train those muscles and make them stronger. Now does that mean I encourage everyone to use AAS? No its still illegal and dangerous and most people don't need it. But ultimately that choice is on the individual. Now when I come off AAS and use a complete and proper PCT things do change. I no longer feel like I am 25, I don't have the same stamina and drive, I get cranky and angry quicker, my focus and drive are less, and my thought process is different. Now I do have to watch my diet more, and it is easier to put fat on and I do lose a minor bit of muscle but again all of this is to be expected because you no longer have tons of test flowing through your body like a tidal wave, and to think nothing would change is just ignorant. Now all of this is how it effects me, as far as you are concerned you may get some, all, or almost none of the same things, every person is different and reacts to things differently this is what makes us unique as individuals. So honestly none of us can truly tell you how it will affect you like DT said. But I do know that if your diet and training are improved and better than before then when you do come off your life will be better off simply as a result of that. Never underestimate diet and training!

And last but not least to answer some of your questions I refer to your exact statement you made above: Why use AAS at all? If the risk is so high and the off time so necessary with always the fear of permanent life threatening damage...what is the value? what is the gain?

 

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I want to thank Strong

I want to thank Strong personally. It's not easy to share so much about oneself even anonymously. Very helpful.

Semper Fi...obviously you have  a great servants heart and provide good advice and insight and have been hugely helpful to many over the years so please feel encouraged to give you thoughts on this 'thread' ! I have learned a ton from you in a short time.

Titanings it took time to get there as it took time for me to even discover exactly what I wanted to ask but that was perfect for my questions. Thank you so much!!!

One last dumb question. What, to the best of anyones knowledge, is the long term harm of a continued "tidal wave" dosage? What is the expected damage of say a 500 to 1000 a week Test load, non stop/non off cycle?  I am sure someone here knows and I am not saying I plan to do it (already have the HCG and Nov and Clomid on the way) but I would like to know as such knowledge does help me make better long term plans. 

Thanks again for everything guys.

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Again you ask

a question that if it suits what you want to hear you are potentially gonna get the green light from one of us??? Look bud there are many avenues to find the answer to your question.i may get hate for this but I really don't care,these constant questions are becoming a spoon feeding marathon you have had many many members chime in and help and its gotten a little ridiculous with the last two questions.Go google that shit in a better phras that tidal wave dosage and see what YOU find.You recogniZed and acknowledged it was a dumb question in your first sentence yet asked it again. Some guys will say there is no stupid questions and I'm here to say yes there is and this is one of them

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agree. 

agree. 

to a degree. ,,sorry had a emergency. 

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500-1000mgs per week is not

500-1000mgs per week is not "off cycle." Just sayin' 

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Bobby, I sent you a friend

Bobby, I sent you a friend request. I see you have no baseline and don't even know where to start... I would be glad to help you stay as safe as possible in your quest... I'm a little dumbfounded at this point of your thread... You have been more than respectful and admit that you are clueless on the use of AAS.

Go to your profile and you will see I sent you a friend request...

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strong you are correct. , and

strong you are correct. , and my post above was saying i agree and yet disagree. ...  some questions need pm.  , there is such thing as spoon feeding. , then theres not.  then other questions better answered on forum.   for all to see. ...

your right bobby has been nothing but respectful. , and with this , and what i wanted to say aboive is sometimes send a pm.   my door is also open... and i pmed him that.    ....

there are major changes coming in the next few weeks i promise.    

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He has been respectful strong

But at some point we have to identify and establish what is a senseless question and what is helpful and useful asking if he can run  a 500-1000mgfor life  a week cycle is not a useful question he is only trying to find 1 person to give the thumbs up and off he goes. To me personally those are games this thread has been above and beyond helpful to the original problem but there comes a time where you need to research on your own and comeback after a day or so of reading and bring your research to the table for all of us to help not ask question after question with self seeking undertones. Anyways my opinion hope that atleast explains my previous post

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I agree on alot of the points here

Bobby at this point I am done. You asked reasonable questions at first and almost every single person gave you the same answer of get off the gear because you don't know what your doing and its dangerous for your health. Then I even gave you a step by step of how to do it with a PCT to minimalize any problems. So then you ventured out further with the possibility of never coming off and said:

Why not just pick a low maintenance dose and never go off cycle? Other than it could mean permanent damage to the testicles and the inability to ever produce T on my own again...so what?

So then I even one step further to explain how doing self prescribed TRT can be dangerous and you should never do it without blood work for PROOF of low test and seeing a doctor. Then you asked what it feels like coming off gear and got the exact answer you thought you would get. So now you have finally pushed for the one big question that you hope just one person will give you a thumbs up on:

What is the expected damage of say a 500 to 1000 a week Test load, non stop/non off cycle?

So to answer your question: COMPLETE AND TOTAL IT WILL KILL YOU!

And since you were hoping we would answer it so it would help you decide whether or not you wanted to do it as you explained in this comment:

but I would like to know as such knowledge does help me make better long term plans.

Now you know.

And now I will no longer be offering you any advice as your true intentions have been stated and made clear even though I 100% do not agree with them and guarantee it will kill you. Your being nice is appreciated, but in the end I can not and will not encourage this in any way, and I am done, and I hope everyone else will do the same.

 

 

 

 

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My sincerest apologies to you

My sincerest apologies to you all. I have no desire for a thumbs up as you seem to say.

I have honestly taken the advice and appreciate it. I have gone off as advised and ordered the necessary PCT .

I have no desire to take dumb risk etc...I seek only knowledge from the first realistic source I have ever found that has first hand experience for such knowledge. So yes I am and was fascinated to learn of the error of my initial path and the VERY knowledgable reasons for why (Hypothalamus and loss of ability to ever produce T etc....) 

Likewise my apologies if I seemed anything but desirous of knowledge but what to expect when coming off cycle (please keep in mind no fewer than 3 of you stated it was the 'worst hell' you ever went thought - without PCT drugs)  seemed important to know.

My last question was honestly asked multiple times but never answered, thus it was asked again. I don't claim to be brilliant but I was wondering. Not from the standpoint of 'I want the okay' but from the standpoint of 'what is the experience of a worst case scenario'. Surely, I assumed, someone has known someone who tried or some medical study showed. If the risk is heart dieses or if it's cancer or if it's stroke or death of certain important glands etc....whatever the risk learned from such an tragic experiment would be extremely helpful for me in the future to know what the main risk factors are and thus how best to avoid them.  So while the question was probably answered and I am just too ignorant to have realized it, that was my reason for asking again.

I will stop bothering you all with this discussion thread. And I will return to, as one man suggested "googling this shit..."  

My eternal thanks for the knowledge that was shared and again my sincerest apologies for those of you whom I obviously offended. Such was never my intent. My best to you all!! and thank you all for your excellent service to people such as me (and even obviously smarter than me :-)  in the information you share here. It has been and will continue to be extremely helpful to me!!!

Hopefully that apology and explanation helped. It was truly sincere!